tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post2199595523303865644..comments2024-03-24T07:56:33.811-05:00Comments on Allan R. Bevere: Sex and Schism #3: The Local Option ReconsideredAllan R. Beverehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-61167640733115479452014-06-13T05:46:22.161-05:002014-06-13T05:46:22.161-05:00Erik,
My reading of church history tells me that ...Erik,<br /><br />My reading of church history tells me that comparable conflicts among Protestants end in division.<br /><br />Yes, the fact that we are in a "post-Christendom" age (I prefer that term) is significant at least in regard to marriage and the state. Unlike some I want to separate the issue of legal "marriage" from the true institution of marriage administered by the church. In other words, I am much less interested in what the state does, and far more interested as to how the church handles this matter.Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-53867177782195759452014-06-12T13:22:23.033-05:002014-06-12T13:22:23.033-05:00Allan, I'm wondering if there's a comparab...Allan, I'm wondering if there's a comparable conflict in our tradition from which we can learn? Also, isn't this debate affected by the fact that we are in an post-Christian age? In other words, how far shall we go to be relevant and/or be the alternative consciousness? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-48859042644489969002014-06-07T07:55:32.881-05:002014-06-07T07:55:32.881-05:00Craig,
That is right. That's one of the reaso...Craig,<br /><br />That is right. That's one of the reasons I do not think it would settle the dispute.<br /><br />Is it possible to imagine delegates from the Central Conferences, particularly Africa, voting for this?<br /><br />That doesn't mean it doesn't merit serious consideration, of course, but unless something happens that I cannot foresee, anyway, I think this proposal will be dead on arrival, though I can always hope for a miracle of the Spirit that will see us through.Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-18346515505897029032014-06-07T07:50:01.866-05:002014-06-07T07:50:01.866-05:00Matt O'Reilly makes a good point (I think) whe...Matt O'Reilly makes a good point (I think) when he argues that the Way Forward allows for something the UM Discipline now prohibits. In order for the Way Forward to be allowable, the controversial provisions of the Discipline would need to be changed. Craig L. Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08351091412370400350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-85964175392791470362014-06-07T05:41:36.804-05:002014-06-07T05:41:36.804-05:00Jonathan,
You make a good point. A Way Forward do...Jonathan,<br /><br />You make a good point. A Way Forward does indeed create a functional schism.Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-5493089487831022902014-06-07T05:38:25.326-05:002014-06-07T05:38:25.326-05:00Allan, you rightly identify that a part of the pro...Allan, you rightly identify that a part of the problem is that one side just wants to quote scripture while the other side just wants to talk about loving relationships in a vague, squishy way. We need to go deeper. <br /><br />Another point that Jamie hinted at is this: "a way forward" is simply schism by another name. Just like amicable separation, it would essentially create two churches. -- a progressive church and a traditionalist church. I could be wrong about that, but if so I would like someone to explain why.<br /><br />Another weakness of a way forward is that it does indeed treat sexual morality as a "think and let think" matter, and in Acts 15, this is certainly not the case. <br /><br />Despite these weaknesses, a way forward might be better than the alternatives. Jonathan Marlowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16452143249853364704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-685126176354866762014-06-06T21:06:59.822-05:002014-06-06T21:06:59.822-05:00I absolutely agree that we need to be having safe,...I absolutely agree that we need to be having safe, loving conversations in our congregations about sexuality as a holistic topic. We need to take the best representation from the various perspectives and use this as an opportunity to read the Bible in the intellectually rigorous way that the Wesleyan tradition always has rather than just parroting out regurgitated talking points. We have a resolution in the Virginia Conference to recommend a change to the Discipline's language in favor of LGBT inclusivity. I plan to propose in lieu of this resolution that the conference develop resources for all of our congregations to have these holistic prayerful conversations about sexuality.<br /><br />I also think that pastors should always retain absolute discretion over who they marry. If I can't affirm with any degree of seriousness that a couple is going to make it in a marriage, I would refuse to officiate their wedding.Morgan Guytonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14325942871813477553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-1873349217707280232014-06-06T14:27:31.253-05:002014-06-06T14:27:31.253-05:00One practical, legal issue I've wondered about...One practical, legal issue I've wondered about and not seen discussed: If a pastor refuses to officiate at a same-gender wedding, and the denomination no longer holds a united position against it, then doesn't that weaken the pastor's legal defense? For instance, I come from a peace church tradition. Our young men could be granted exception from the draft, on conscious objector grounds, because it was known to be one of our denomination's earnestly-held beliefs. RevDonnaHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13236575098564313807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-49694944172946971342014-06-06T13:07:47.302-05:002014-06-06T13:07:47.302-05:00It's interesting that I support the "amic...It's interesting that I support the "amicable separation" proposal for much of the same reason Steve Harper supports the "Way Forward" proposal- to change the conversation and inspire new ideas. Einstein said, "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Been there and done that for 42 years and it's only getting more intense. With Harper I , too, say, "none of us knows 'how' this proposal can 'save the day.' But if we were willing to get together (to talk about what it would mean to amicably separate), might God not show us a way forward we have not yet seen?" I have never believed the "amicable separation" proposal is "perfect" or is the "only" possible solution, but I did believe it would inspire all kinds of new conversations, which it has done.Jamienoreply@blogger.com