tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post1792641287591788540..comments2024-03-24T07:56:33.811-05:00Comments on Allan R. Bevere: Radical Change? How about Just a Little Change?Allan R. Beverehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-13736146393497407872012-05-01T17:11:38.530-05:002012-05-01T17:11:38.530-05:00John,
I don't think the bishops had anything ...John,<br /><br />I don't think the bishops had anything to say on the matter. They are not allowed to vote at GC nor speak on the floor.Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-11159091768409369562012-05-01T16:39:18.783-05:002012-05-01T16:39:18.783-05:00So the Bishops simultaneously insist that job secu...So the Bishops simultaneously insist that job security is necessary for them to function, but not for the rank and file clergy.<br /><br />That seems interesting, no?John Partridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02271702233484025459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-90291415666115122222012-05-01T14:10:39.963-05:002012-05-01T14:10:39.963-05:00Derek,
Thanks for your comments.
Yes, indeed a g...Derek,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments.<br /><br />Yes, indeed a growing church is not in and of itself an indicator of a radically discipled congregation, but the hosts of declining congregations in the UMC are not an indicators either. Indeed, as most agree, it is an indicator of exactly the opposite, so some appeal to numbers is not out of bounds.<br /><br />I surely disagree with those who think numbers alone tell us everything we need to know, but neither are numbers insignificant. Even Luke feels the need to mention that 5000 converts were added on the first Christian Pentecost.<br /><br />So, it's not mainly and only about numbers, but neither are numbers irrelevant. I am in complete agreement with you and Dan and others who continue to make the point that it is about radical discipleship, but I am not completely sure that CTA is incompatible with that.<br /><br />All I want to say is that if GC cannot pass something that at least recognizes we need to do something differently, how in the world are we going to become the radical disciples Jesus called us to be?<br /><br />And as far as the bourgeois, preference-driven country club context we are all immersed in-- 5000 member churches and 50 member churches are just as buried in that muck. And I fear that will not change until the UMC has experienced the full measure of its exile... and that has not yet happened.Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-72310684916919949152012-05-01T09:44:33.035-05:002012-05-01T09:44:33.035-05:00I may be missing the major elements of this conver...I may be missing the major elements of this conversation. I think the best thing to do is set up the local church to create disciples and forget what most of the General Church does. They are kind of out there and cost the local church resourses to exist. OK, I accept the cost, now leave me alone so that I can attempt the creation, development, growth of disciples of Jesus Christ. I am not saying this is the best response to all that is before us, but it is one I can live with.<br />BruceBrucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-70842613121452890212012-05-01T08:28:18.925-05:002012-05-01T08:28:18.925-05:00Allan, I understand your sentiment here, and trust...Allan, I understand your sentiment here, and trust me, I too am frustrated witht he church, but the problem with the CTA and the entire Vital Congregations movement is that it just another example of the "bourgeois, preference-driven, country club status" you rightly lament. Among those who oppose the CTA, including Dan Dick, as I understand him, are those who oppose it because the only indicators given of whether or not congregations are "vital" have to do with attendance and giving figures. The problem is that the CTA does nothing to encourage radical discipleship...it encourages church growth, and I think we both know that you don't have to be a disciple to have a growning church.Derek Kubilusnoreply@blogger.com