tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post1500065570385205997..comments2024-03-24T07:56:33.811-05:00Comments on Allan R. Bevere: What Is Heresy? #4Allan R. Beverehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-5900434008847441382011-10-06T19:55:52.169-05:002011-10-06T19:55:52.169-05:00It leaves us with the continued struggle to read S...It leaves us with the continued struggle to read Scripture faithfully knowing that we see through a glass darkly.<br /><br />Which is why these kinds of conversations are important and why we must have conversation partners who do not always agree.Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-84510472129425942102011-10-05T15:42:39.808-05:002011-10-05T15:42:39.808-05:00I'm still not sure about how we get at this.
...I'm still not sure about how we get at this.<br /><br />A lot of things about which people have very, very strong opinions are not what I consider, strictly speaking, doctrine. <br /><br />Isn't a lot of this debate really about attempting to take the latest church hot topic, frame it in some sort of doctrinal frame and denounce those who disagree as heretics?<br /><br />When I was a 'teen in my denomination the issue du jour was women's ordination (in the late 1960s when no mainstream Protestant denomination was ordaining women). The main arguments were the same as today's hot topic: "The authority of Scripture" versus "justice.<br /><br />In my opinion, believing in women's ordination does not make a person a heretic, despite the fact that the bible clearly has passages prohibiting women from functions we associate with ordination. But the argument at the time was that obviously you can't take the Scripture seriously if you're willing to set this aside, so obviously you have not committed yourself to Christ, so obviously you must be a heretic. All of which sounds strangely familiar.<br /><br />So where does that leave the conversation?PamBGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11324370506889227234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-11178140365431402842011-10-05T12:30:57.494-05:002011-10-05T12:30:57.494-05:00Pam,
You have said little I disagree with. So, pe...Pam,<br /><br />You have said little I disagree with. So, perhaps the discussion needs to harken back to Scripture. In saying that I am not suggesting that the debate gets easier, but at least we have a central source of authority around which to have the discussion.Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-33850363426478073782011-10-04T19:02:19.524-05:002011-10-04T19:02:19.524-05:00The other matter that comes to mind for me is that...<i>The other matter that comes to mind for me is that how our doctrine and therefore our moral positions get undermined because we the church seem more stuck in the current culture and what it deems acceptable than anything else.</i><br /><br />I don't really see any way to avoid this.<br /><br />For example, I think that a lot of the beliefs that folk take as "classic Christian doctrine" are actually Constantinian syncretism. <br /><br />There are a whole load of Christian folk - hopefully not Methodist - now asserting that the ordination of women is a sell-out to secular culture. Whereas I think that the "normalization" of the white, middle class, middle aged heterosexual male and the "otherization" of everyone who is not is the real sell-out to secular values.PamBGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11324370506889227234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-26146704675453925992011-10-04T15:31:11.189-05:002011-10-04T15:31:11.189-05:00Pam,
I suppose we do have to ponder the nature of...Pam,<br /><br />I suppose we do have to ponder the nature of doctrine. While I would not think your examples to be one of doctrine <i>per se</i>, all of them have doctrinal implications.<br /><br />The other matter that comes to mind for me is that how our doctrine and therefore our moral positions get undermined because we the church seem more stuck in the current culture and what it deems acceptable than anything else.<br /><br />Whether that latter comment is related to our discussion in today's post on the Catholic Church and health care is something that might warrant further discussion.Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-48501509066191683962011-10-04T09:50:35.857-05:002011-10-04T09:50:35.857-05:00Then we get into the question of "What is Doc...Then we get into the question of "What is Doctrine?" don't we?<br /><br />What I admit I'm reacting to is the movement to study in minute detail the originating texts of Methodism in America and to take them as if they are verbally-inspired, inerrant and infallible.<br /><br />A lot of these texts won't, of course, be doctrine strictly speaking.<br /><br />Random examples:<br />* Wesley thought God might call women to preach but he didn't permit it and neither did the Methodist church at the beginning (not doctrine, strictly speaking, but there is this tendency to view eccelisal order as doctrinal.)<br /><br />* American Methodism spent a scandalous amount of time defending slavery and segregation forcing African-American brothers and sisters to form the AME.<br /><br />* I'm not defending the lamentable decline in the concept of human sinfulness, but who these days really understands or believes in the concept of the utter depravity of humans? (Maybe the closest thing I can think of to doctrine.)<br /><br />These are just examples so you can get my drift.PamBGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11324370506889227234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-35655444141592860242011-10-04T07:02:17.849-05:002011-10-04T07:02:17.849-05:00Pam,
As always you ask wonderful questions.
I...Pam,<br /><br />As always you ask wonderful questions.<br /><br />I'm struggling to answer your question because it might be helpful to get at this by looking at something specific. So, what good doctrine in the 18th century is problematic for the 21st century?<br /><br />Can you give a specific example?Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19733180.post-68304679306417658722011-10-03T15:20:34.736-05:002011-10-03T15:20:34.736-05:00I'd really like to understand how doctrine dev...I'd really like to understand how doctrine develops in the UMC. From you or other readers.<br /><br />In British Methodism, we don't have the Articles of Religion and we don't actually have a lot of written doctrine. <br /><br />I see some UMCers on the internet constantly quoting Wesley and seeming to think that good doctrine in the 18th century should be good doctrine for the 21st century. But I have no idea what the "for" arguments are for on-going theological reflection and doctrinal development in the UMC.<br /><br />Thanks.PamBGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11324370506889227234noreply@blogger.com